A 3D Brisby you say? Can it be any good?

Live forum: http://www.thornvalley.com/commons/forum/viewtopic.php?t=727

TimothyB

30-08-2007 00:18:55

I just got a new program called ZBrush. It's like a digital clay sculpting
program. Letting you push, pull, pinch, inflat, magnify, rake, brush, and so
on with a mouse, or better, a drawing tablet. You have to learn certain
things and tricks, but just about anyone can have fun with it without
having to know anything about 3D. You can start with a sphere and turn it
into anything you want.

Anyway, here's my 2nd real attempt at anything in the program, and it's
Brisby:

Keep in mind this is still a very much work in progress. I had just worked
on the mouth area before work today and there still needs to be more
refining from the front view:



http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_001.jpg[" alt=""/img]


[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_002.jpg[" alt=""/img]


Here's a list of some of the best work done in the program that were
posted by the artist in the forums there:
[url=]http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/featured2col.php[]http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/featured2col.php[/url]

Simon

30-08-2007 07:55:16

Hey, that's pretty cool! Hope to see a more finished version soon. :)

TimothyB

31-08-2007 14:48:52

Little more work on the Nose and mouth (next will be some work on the eyes as you see from the dark selection I started to make):

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_003.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Cedric

31-08-2007 15:51:28

Not bad. Are you eventually going to do a full-body Brisby?

TimothyB

01-09-2007 14:28:35

Real quick post on an update on the eyes before I run off to work:

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_005.jpg[" alt=""/img]

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_004.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Whiskers57

03-09-2007 00:50:34

I hope the best, that looks like so much work, just do not know how you artist do it :? .
But I`m glad you do!!

TimothyB

11-09-2007 13:27:05

Sorry I haven't made any real progress to update here. I began learning how to retopology the model in zbrush. Topology is considered the flow of polygons in the model. Normally for a character, you try to have it so you create loops of 4 sided polygons, like around eyes and the mouth. That way you can close the eye or open the mouth with natural results. And letting you keep the poloygons low, and at render time, they are subdivided (split each polygon into 4, 5 times over) with smoothing, for what appears high poly.

The polygons are pretty much a grid when you start with a sphere in Zbrush, very bad. So I had to redo it.

I'm probably going over peoples heads right now. Just imagine though, if the face was made up of 64,000 polygons, and then trying to carefully rearrange them to close the eye, it would be near impossible. But if there was a way to keep the base polygon mesh low, then say the eye lid might make up as little as 10 polygons, letting you rearrange it easier.

To make the polygons even simpler, I was trying to create a displacement map. A black and white image that would displace the polygons for more detail.

Here's the original mesh, pretty much a grid, no loops:
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_007.jpg[" alt=""/img]

With being able to paint in Zbrush, I prepainted the expected new topology, so I can figure it out better. Keep in mind I need to have 4 sided polygons, trying to avoid 3 or ones higher than 4. You can see the new topology as the new light orange lines:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_008.jpg[" alt=""/img]


Preview of the new mesh, notice the loops around the eye and around the mouth, nose, and edges flow around important details.
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_009.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Subdivided and smoothed, you notice it has no real detail starting with so low detail:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_011.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Luckily, during the retopology process, you can project the original model details back into it:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_010.jpg[" alt=""/img]

For the heck of it, I redid some details from a smoothed version two images above, instead of the original detail. I then exported the lowest poly version, created a displacement map to add the details I just made back into inside the 3D program of choice.
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_012.jpg[" alt=""/img]


So here was a test in Carrara 3D, with some issues as I'm till learning. The first face, smoothed subdivided model with no detail, the 2nd features the displacement map to add the details I made. Then the last two were tests rearranging the polygons to close the eye, lower the smile, or lower the eyebrow and puff the cheek with a strong smile. I accidentally made the displacement map only 1024li1024 pixels, so it was too pixelated and created some jagged areas around the eye folds. And for some reason didn't match the outer edges:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_013.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Maybe before I go any further. I should try creating a body.

leejakobson

12-09-2007 00:53:18

nice sweet pics nice work hope to see more soon. great work.

DariusGreywind

12-09-2007 07:47:21

Very impressive indeed.

Moonman

12-09-2007 11:37:20

Indeed that's impressive work. I've always wanted to get my hands on zBrush, but I've never been able to obtain a working copy to muss around in. :P You intend on doing anything more with this?

TimothyB

12-09-2007 13:14:11

Indeed that's impressive work. I've always wanted to get my hands on zBrush, but I've never been able to obtain a working copy to muss around in. :P You intend on doing anything more with this?


Yeah. Last night I looked for tons of Brisby photos that show her body to see how the legs and arms were shaped, joined and deforms. It's confusing since it's not as clear as legs on a human are, her legs blend in with the body unless stretched out where the bones start forming a distinct shape. So I'm just wondering how is too much detail and how it would be rigged to move.

Then I spent the rest of the night trying to figure out a way to join the current head I made with all subdivision levels to a new body I might make. I think I found a way.

One cool thing about zbrush is the way to create a quick skin, or body. With Zspheres. You form a body with spheres that connect like a stick man or you can get really detailed, then make a skin around it that has nice flow of polygons that are all the same size. Much better having the general shape you want to start modeling on rather than trying to distort a primitive sphere or box to the body. Some people still might rather do it in their other 3D program to already have good topology, then import into Zbrush.

I lucked out and got a good deal with Zbrush. Daz3D had it on sale, with CD, for $380. At the time it was $488 with CD at Zbrush.com, and now near two months later, they raised the base price to $595.

I know the new Carrara 6 (www.daz3d.com) has some displacement modeling with brushs and alphas, but obviously nothing like the detail or flexibility of Zbrush. Though, Pro is on sale for for $194, even includes hair now for fur. Don't think you can find anything near as complete for that price. I'll upgrade to it soon, but I mostly model in Hexagon that Daz sells, just easier in it.

TimothyB

13-09-2007 12:35:05

A little more wip practice with Zspheres to create a body for Brisby. This time learning how to do magnets that pull (the transparent spheres). I probably spent too much time trying to get things perfect with Zspheres when I could have just reshaped it from the generated skin (the top right image)

First two images show zsphere work with adaptive skin on the right. 2nd two just show a bit of transposing, smoothing and moving on the legs to see how they'd repose. Plus a bit of color just to see how things are shaping up so far.

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_015.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Don't know how much time I should waste with zspheres to create hands compared to a normal way, but I'll give it a shot.

Leo

14-09-2007 09:37:40

Those design are cool!

I saw Louise design. She is a master on 3D

TimothyB

20-09-2007 01:30:36

A little progress update.

I was working more on the body, like the arms, shoulders, hands and such. I wanted to see how it would pose and match up to Brisby to catch mistakes.

So I placed her head on and used transpose in Zbrush to pose and made other tweaks to fix things, then a quick paint job.

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_016.jpg[" alt=""/img]


So it's coming along

TimothyB

21-09-2007 16:22:27

More work done on her body. Here's a turntable video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5lAQKsGG2k

Wow, seeing this rotating video really helps look for things to change. Anyone have suggestions. Keep in mind, I'm going to try and use fur to fill in the body, so while in most movie stills her arms look thick near the shoulders, but that may be achieved with fur.

SirShane

21-09-2007 19:51:53

Hi TimothyB,

I've been watching this thread for the past few days and I have to say I'm really impressed. I've been wondering myself how a 3D version of Mrs. Brisby might look.

I'm a bit skeptical about you using 3D fur. I'd have to see it, but i'm afraid that it might look too 'real'. Are you going to use it on her whole body, or just use it to fill in areas that need it? If you use it on her whole body it might add too much definition and make her look too realistic, bringing you closer to the 'Uncanny Valley' and further from Bluth's design.

Keep us posted. I love what you're doing here. :)

TimothyB

21-09-2007 22:18:46

The software I'm using is Carrara, and they just released version 6 and added hair. So it's capable of fur now. Though, how well I can use it is up in the air. It would take planning to get it full in the right areas, then very fine around hands and feet. Just adding bones to a character and adjusting the weighting to the other bones is difficult. That's were you tell how much it will effect the surrounding geometry so say when you lower the arm down it deforms right.

I'll experiment with fur on the body tonight to see how it looks. But I won't work too hard since I don't want to spend too much time on not the final version.

SirShane

21-09-2007 22:51:07

I'll experiment with fur on the body tonight to see how it looks. But I won't work too hard since I don't want to spend too much time on not the final version.

If you can, post some screenshots. I'm curious what it'll look like, even if it's just a rough concept. I've seen a lot of 3D modelers that support hair, but trying to make fur out of it is another thing all together. :)

TimothyB

22-09-2007 12:25:53

Well, here's what I did.

First image shows two hair groups. Blue and Green. Since I knew the hair
on hands, feet and tail will be shorter it would not to be more dense. So I did them in a separate group to bump up the hair count without going
overkill on the whole body. So problems here and there, like noticeable lines. I'm using geometry to base the fur placement. I didn't have the UVs made up yet, it might improve things. And I would have been able to do a texture to adjust the color.

And the hair group areas can overlap other hair groups, so I can blend
them together, or add more styling.

So here you can see a brand new hair group for the hands, feet and tail
before adjust the guides and length:
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/fur/hair_006.jpg[" alt=""/img]

First render test. The main body was set to 500,000 hairs. I think the other
hair group was 200,000 or so.
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/fur/hair_005.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Here, along the leg, and body, you almost see an odd pattern form within the fur. Not sure what's causing it. Seems to be less when I adjust the density lower. Just not sure what's causing it yet:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/fur/hair_004.jpg[" alt=""/img]

A little closer, with the body reduced to 300,000 hairs or so to try and fix
the problem. I also can manually control the density of the hair per guide
that is placed. So areas that don't need to be as uniform or dense, like the
chest, can be adjusted. You'll notice I didn't take much time to blend the
hair on the tail.
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/fur/hair_007.jpg[" alt=""/img]

This program Carrara 6 pro, is on sale for $192 or so. But you can still get
the non pro version for $99 that has the same hair features. I think they
have a 30 day return period for downloads purchases. http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/catmain/-/?cat=422

Cedric

22-09-2007 14:29:53

A CG Brisby ready for the 3D film indiustry to further destroy the NIMH name.
For the love of all that is holy among you, don't let them do it. Please.

Admittingly, I think it is really good. But do the hands and feet need more fur than the rest of the body? I would think they would need less, but art is well beyond me so who am I to know?

TimothyB

22-09-2007 14:48:30

A CG Brisby ready for the 3D film indiustry to further destroy the NIMH name.
For the love of all that is holy among you, don't let them do it. Please.

Admittingly, I think it is really good. But do the hands and feet need more fur than the rest of the body? I would think they would need less, but art is well beyond me so who am I to know?


The issue is that the shorter the hair is, the harder it is for me to bend it along the surface, so it sticks out more, meaning you are most likely able to see the skin under the fur, so you have to increase the density to hide the skin. The feet might be overdone and could use longer hair and less dense. But again, this was just a test before spending real time trying to get it all looking good and flowing right, and it's all default thickness hairs and roots and tops and so on. And looking at other cg films, and real animals, around the center of the faces near noses and other parts the hair is so short that it mainly becomes fuzz more than fur, so it needs more density.

Ack, off to work, later.

DariusGreywind

22-09-2007 15:19:00

I think it looks extremely good, particularly since it's still a WIP. The fur effect is quite amazing, really.

SirShane

22-09-2007 21:01:59

I'm still not convinced that using 3D fur is the right way to go here. I think you're better off going with just flat cell shading instead. I'll trust your judgment, though. ;)

TimothyB

22-09-2007 22:42:32

I'm still not convinced that using 3D fur is the right way to go here. I think you're better off going with just flat cell shading instead. I'll trust your judgment, though. ;)


I'd actually like to do cel shading. It's just the cartoon renderer is pretty crummy that comes with the software. If it was good, I'd probably polygon model hair like on the face and other areas that would normally look odd with full shading, but fine cartoon shaded.

There is a plug-in for $40 that would give real control for quality toon rendering. I'll probably pick it up soon.

But I can't help want to see what Brisby would look like if she had been in a movie like Over the Hedge type quality. And this is mainly for my learning and practice, so I naturally just chose a favorite character to do.

Though, in the end, I hope it doesn't look scary with real fur and such :)

TimothyB

23-10-2007 13:18:19

I gave up trying to do the detail with displacement maps, took the model done so far at low polygon into Hexagon, a polygon modeling program, and manually added the detail in while keep it low poly, but here you see it smoothed twice, meaning each polygon was divided into 4 polygons, then each of those polygons divided into 4, and an overall smoothing effect.

I did test a bones and managed to move the legs right, so all is looking hopeful for rigging.

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_017.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Leo

24-10-2007 20:08:54

:D That's wonderful!

Her skin is so natural in your style.

Are you a marvelous artist!

Can you show me your woorks, when it be finished?

TimothyB

25-10-2007 13:31:25

It's sure tough to know when this will be finished when it's really my first dip into 3D. It's one thing to model, but then texture, rig bones, facial morph targets, and more can really be daunting.

In this update. Another look at the model with wireframe on the face, unsmoothed body, and and example of manually moving the polygons to make the eye closed.

Also a quick animation to test morph targets. Morph targets are something where you change the face by moving things around, like lowering an eyebrow. You can't add any lines or polygons, it has to be the same. Then you can morph between them to animate or make a new expression. I need to test the model to see if I should add more lines and just learning what morphs to make to blend them together without errors.

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_022.jpg[" alt=""/img]



And here is the simple animation, they are each about 1 meg gifs:

The standard toon renderer is not that good, I'd have to get a more advance plugin:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_023.gif[" alt=""/img]

This one has regular shading, not toon style:
[url=]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_022.gif[]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_022.gif[/url]

TimothyB

25-10-2007 13:55:38

Also, I may try and make a version that can be switched from fur to more sculpted fur that would work with a toon shader. But, not sure how I'd go about that. Add more detail to the side of the head, morph it out, then apply a normal map or displacement to add more detail. I have to figure that out all ahead of time as once you are near finished rigging your character, you can't really change stuff.

Cedric

25-10-2007 16:40:55

I never thought Mrs. Brisby could look so mean. Does Evil Martin from an unnamed movie have a mother?

TimothyB

25-10-2007 17:30:49

I never thought Mrs. Brisby could look so mean. Does Evil Martin from an unnamed movie have a mother?


She once had an angry expression telling Jeremy to leave after he nearly jumping on her from the water to look at the sparkly, but this one is not as cute probably :)

Whiskers57

27-10-2007 15:46:47

Wow!! Timothy, It`s looking good, putting the fur on looks the hardest to me, but it came good and looks real.
keep up the great work :wink:

Moonman

30-10-2007 00:24:34

Ugh! Yeah, ditch that toon shader. In fact, I'd say ditch any toon shader if yer gonna try for fur. You could go one way or the other, but I don't think I've seen a successful attempt with both.

TimothyB

30-10-2007 12:40:35

Hmm, I was looking at some images of Brisby and noticed that maybe I exaggerated the eyebrows a little too much. In movie stills, her head mostly remains spherical from the eye lid and up, the eye brows are thusly smooth.

So here's a little update with the eyes a bit smaller and the eyebrows mostly flowing with the spherical shape of the head.

(I used quick polygon shading to help guide me and started creating eyelash and such shapes)
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_024.jpg[" alt=""/img]

TimothyB

02-11-2007 14:22:27

Another update on the modeling. Worked on the hands a bit. Worked on the arm around the middle. Made the neck slightly thinner. Put a temp texture I painted really quick in Zbrush. It's getting close to the main overall mesh is finished and then on to real textures, rigging, etc.

If anyone has any suggestions please say something. Like if the muzzle sticks out too far and such.

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_025.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Nimhster

02-11-2007 21:50:47

You're getting close to being done!

leejakobson

16-01-2008 11:26:22

cool can not wait to see the finished project

TimothyB

16-01-2008 13:15:17

I've put it a bit on hold until an update patch for my 3D software comes out.

Here are posts I made on other websites that I forgot to post here while Thornvalley was down:


-------------------------------
Now I didn't want to just use real fur, but also switch to a sculpted look.
So I decided I'd use a morph to move the mesh in position for a
displacement to create the sculpted fur (the chest looks odd here):

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_026a.jpg[" alt=""/img]


After fixing the chest, I moved back into Carrara, here I took that morph,
like you see in the low polygon mesh above where the cheeks and top of
head puff out, and applied the displacement. This way I can quickly switch
back and forth with the morph. I did a few toon renders to see the
possibility, but really need the Toon Pro plug-in for usable results:

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_027a.jpg[" alt=""/img]


[b]Turn table animation at youtube form Zbrush:[/b]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jGNCfIGovMQ

------------------------------------------------------------

TimothyB

16-01-2008 13:18:04

More posting I had done on other sites:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I tested painted texture from Zbrush in Carrara with a bit of bump
from the same texture. It's very suddle, but I can make the texture
stronger in Photoshop if I need to.

These renders were to find errors early on:

Click for larger version:
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_029a.jpg

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_029.jpg[" alt=""/img]


Click for larger: http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_028a.jpg

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_028.jpg[" alt=""/img]


How it currently looks in Zbrush after that (4.4 million polygons in these views, each polygon a single pixel of color):

Click for larger: http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_030a.jpg

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_030.jpg[" alt=""/img]

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_031a.jpg[" alt=""/img]


Click for larger: http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_032a.jpg

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_032.jpg[" alt=""/img]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TimothyB

16-01-2008 13:21:47

Another post from another site:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some teeth and mouth work in Hexagon. Added note, I mostly plan to
show just the front tooth 90% of the time, but I thought it be best I also
have full set of teeth when needed:

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_033.jpg[" alt=""/img]


Test tongue subsurface lighting renders in Carrara:

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_034.jpg[" alt=""/img]


I placed a few blocks around it to so light would come from front:

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_035.jpg[" alt=""/img]


Currently I'm working on the painting as you see above for the fur.
So overall texturing. Then All that will be put into Carrara with some new
test renders. A couple quick morphs to test the mouth opening and see the
texturing there. Then I could to redo and finalize the non-spherical eyes.
Further test a texture for the eyelashes and and eyebrows. Then try some
fur. A lot to do :)

--------------------------------------------------------------

TimothyB

16-01-2008 13:26:39

Oh, another test of SSS, subsurface scattering, to see if I can make the ears glow from back lighting.

Though, I hope when the patch comes out, and the shader layer tool is fixed
for vertex objects, that I could then use a texture map to control the
strength of the SSS around the body, so that it only happens at the ears,
and maybe nose, compared to how hard it is to balance with the whole body with one setting. As Carraras SSS is not as refined as bigger apps like Maya.
Carrara's SSS seems mostly geared to simulating things like candle wax compared to skin.


http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_037.jpg[" alt=""/img]

TimothyB

16-01-2008 13:42:44

While I'm taking a break from this until the software is fixed, I tried another Don Bluth character, Goldie from Rock a Doodle.

This time, I wanted to
focus all the work just in Zbrush. No exporting it, no rigging for animation,
just plain sculpting. So if I want a pose and expression, I will do it
manually each time. Zbrush allows for nice control to post figures with it's
transpose feature, so no rigging bones and such.

Still very WIP. No work on outer arms, hands, knees, and feet, which are
all still from zspheres basic setup of the mesh.


For a full 3D spin and close ups, view the youtube video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HOHnn7k5RDg

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/goldie/goldie_002a.jpg[" alt=""/img]

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/goldie/goldie_003a.jpg[" alt=""/img]

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/goldie/goldie_001a.jpg[" alt=""/img]

On this one, I crashed and lost some of the refined work on the top of the
outfit, so it's blurry, and the render material seems strong around neck
and chest, showing too much detail:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/goldie/goldie_004a.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Whiskers57

16-01-2008 17:32:03

I`m loving this :D , I`m a fan of hand drawn animation and do not know much about CG, to me it looks like the work to master a character may be just as hard as in the old style animation.
keep it coming!!

leejakobson

23-01-2008 12:10:16

I am enjoying this but what 3d software you using anyways? out of curiousity

TimothyB

23-01-2008 14:10:50

I am enjoying this but what 3d software you using anyways? out of curiousity


Zbrush is the software I started with for Brisby. Which is like sculpting. And you saw the retopology, where you can change the flow of polygons to better work for animation or just posing. It's a very popular program among professionals to add that extra level of detail, like in Pirates of the Caribbean, and used a lot for games now. It can be used to do a finished illustration, but it can't do animation or more complicated things, so it's more sculpting to then export as to other apps.
http://www.pixologic.com/home.php

You can see a gallery of some of the top featured artists forum threads here:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/featured2col.php

The goldie model was entirely done in Zbrush. So the topology might not be the best for animating in a real program. And I did us

The software is $595 now, it use to be $480 last year, but they changed their prices. Luckily Daz had a special at $380 with CD before the price hike.

-------------------------------
Then I took Brisby into Hexagon, a lesser known modeling program. Got it cheap for $50 when on sale. It has it's problems, but nice and easy to work with.

Watch some example videos here of the software:
http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/software/hexagon/-/features?

If I were to choose again, I'd like into Silo http://www.nevercenter.com/, a little more, but I bet a lot more stable and better service. Though, Daz, the ones that own Hexagon, had a sale on an older version of Modo for $99, with a deal to upgrade to the latest version that just came out for like $300 more. The full version now is $895, so the Daz deal all togethor was the price of the $395 upgrade without ever owning the software before. I hear Pixar might use this software: http://www.luxology.com/
------------------------------------------------------------

After Hex, I was going to take it into Carrara 5 pro that I only paid $133 for, a great deal seeing how comparable software was $600+. Then I upgraded to 6.0 Pro for $99 for new things like Fur. It can model, but nothing compared to Hexagon ease of use. Carrara would be to setup a scene, apply shaders, pose or animate and then render. I mean, compared to the other software like Maya, 3D Max, Lightwave, you are saving thousands.

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/software/carrara/-/?

Though, a lot of the development went into support for Poser (another software) content, which is like dolls, mainly rigged figures. I like the idea of figures and wide spread compatibility, but I want to create my own, while others have a hobby of buying endless virtual dolls to pose and buy outfits for. It makes me mad because the poser figures once loaded in Carrara have better features like conforming clothes and better controls, while the actually real rigging system in Carrara for making your own things really lacks the same control.

I'm not going to pay $189 for Poser 7.0 to rig stuff. Or I can find older versions for cheap, but might not be that easy to rig non-human characters. But there are free software like Daz Studio that I would then be able to share anything I did with anyone.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

TimothyB

23-01-2008 14:18:47

I finished the Goldie model and began posing, which was not an easy thing to do.

Still a bit of a WIP render I did real quick. Blending two renders with different shading to give a bit more depth. I need to work on shadows, and do a pass with no shadows on the eye lids. Fake Photoshop lighting. And so on. Maybe I'll move the feet a little to show the bows better.


http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/Goldie_Render_WIP.jpg[" alt=""/img]



Since posing is so hard and not really intuitive, I had do a quick sketch with my Wacom in Photoshop to plan ahead:

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/Goldie_Render_WIPa.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Nimhster

29-01-2008 20:35:49

You're getting close, I like this type of art, I will be doing this when I get into Highschool which won't be too far from now. Keep up the good work!

beerbeastredux

19-04-2008 11:15:11

Pretty damn impressive. So, you just made this in Zbrush? you didn't model it in MAYA? ( i use Maya, but i went back to drawing coz it was a pain int he ass )

TimothyB

22-04-2008 00:48:44

Pretty damn impressive. So, you just made this in Zbrush? you didn't model it in MAYA? ( i use Maya, but i went back to drawing coz it was a pain int he ass )


I had just bought Zbrush, and only just started 3D stuff, and hoped Zbrush would take the edge off things. Still not easy, but you saw the result of Goldie being completely done in Zbrush. My new found 3D skills have made their way into to my job work.

I don't have Maya, can't afford it. I have Hexagon as a modeler, which is good in it's own right. But like shown in the images, Brisby's head and body were started from scratch in Zbrush. The head's retopology done in Zbrush, then I exported the body and it to Hexagon to attach and edit even further. For render and animation, I have Carrara 6 Pro.

Right now I'm rigging Brisby in Poser 6.0. It's a real pain in the alili. As Poser has no weight mapping for bones, you have to use their joint editor and the spherical falloff zones don't fit all situations, especially with non-human stuff, and I hadn't planned the model's default pose to fit this type of rigging.

Why am I choosing Poser? I plan to share Brisby for free, and theres a program that lets you do simple renders and posing for free too. "Daz Studio 2" reads most all Poser figures. Thus, once I'm done, I can share it with all of you guys, maybe just for reference to draw, or whatever.

TimothyB

22-04-2008 12:28:00

I was typing this message for a private message, but thought it might as well go in this WIP thread:

On Brisby, I hate how long it has taken. Though, a lot of time was wasted waiting for software updates. Then I started to like the idea of Poser, to share it free with everyone, so I finally got my hands on it and discovered the terrible learning process for it. Now after wasting near two weeks on and off after work, I don't think I could ever get what I want. It's like endless tweaking to get one bend to look right, but it might effect the reverse bend, or doesn't work for a certain pose without pinching and looking rough,

Example. When Carrara finally had its bones system fixed, I did this quick test one night, with a first guess where the bones should be:
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/figure_004a.jpg[" alt=""/img]

(Eyes were white spheres and finished in photoshop)

The image of her walking was posed right after attaching the bones, no adjustment of the weight map or other settings. While the laying down pose, I did adjust the weight mapping and influences on her left hip, wasn't that much work (though, no easy symmetry option for the other side). After weeks in Poser, while I can get the walking pose somewhat decent, to get that laying down pose, it might be impossible around the hips.

In that image from Carrara, bones can move points anywhere on the body, and no limit to how many bones influence the same points. In Poser, the bones can only effect a group of polygons assigned to that bone, and all of the previous bone's group of polys. Thus, you are limited in dividing up the body and can't achieve a very soft squishy look in some areas because you get pinches and folds where it ends. Also, Poser figures require a high poly model since it doesn't work with live subdivision smoothing like a did in Carrara.

beerbeastredux

22-04-2008 12:30:05

Lookin GOOD! My ONLY gripe, my ONLY gripe, is that she's almost too perfect.

What do I mean? The signaure bluth style consists of a lot of straights against curves. You have almost all curves here. If you can find a way to rig her so there are contrasticg sharp lines against curves, you'll have her looking more like Mrs. B. Right now, she's almost too smooth. She's like butter :} She needs to be more... rigid :P

Also, she doesnt need toes. Indicate them with texture lines, or rig them so the seams can't be so readily seen. And don't be afraid to give her the "BRISBY BEARD" yep...she had a bit of chin fuzz :}

TimothyB

22-04-2008 12:45:38

What I should probably due, and should have all along during rigging, is grab collection of screen grabs of various poses of Brisby to see how she moves and how she looks in different poses.

You are right, it's very smooth. Probably due to low polygon model with live smoothing going on, so any pose is going to deform very round.

In Poser, I added lines to joints and the hips, and then divided the entire body one more time. Thus, it should look a lot more rigid.

Here are several test poses I did a while ago in Poser. Using Posers library of poses, I test them out, then manual adjust them to work with Brisby. It's any easy way to quickly catch problems.

http://other.toonguru.com/figure_012.jpg[" alt=""/img]

In these images I've since tried to edit the hip to bend into the body and appear more smooth along the side, for like crossing legs while sitting. But that just made things ever harder, redoing almost all the parts of the legs, and still, I may go back to what you see above.

TimothyB

22-04-2008 12:52:50

With Poser, it's really easy to setup morphs to change the style of a figure. I think there's even a way to swap geometry, incase you really wanted the tones as one. And with full body morphs, you can almost create whole new characters from this figure. And Poser has a system to apply clothing that conforms, or other accessories, like maybe polygons with alpha textures for fur. But yes, it's going to be a fun challenge to find the best solution to get that fluffy look for Brisby's head.

Also, the Poser format is fully compatible inside Carrara, so I can use it fur system. Poser also has some basic clothing simulation, which could be used for the cape simulation.

I know one artist on DeviantArt that said if I rigged her for Maya he'd take a stab at animating her.

beerbeastredux

22-04-2008 15:35:26

I'm already a good animator AND i KNOW maya. Why don't you let ME have a shot :D

Whiskers57

24-04-2008 20:49:48

It`s coming along better than i could ever dream, how are you going to do her fur on her head chest and the sides of her face?

TimothyB

26-04-2008 14:11:39

I think I'm finally happy with how the legs are working. I just have to make some adjustments down at the shin when it comes to side to side or bend. Then I can take a look at the elbows and wrists, abdomen, ears, then set up the eyes.

Here are two renders to match my original ones. I got sick of the ugly renders from Poser and save the figure and opened it up in Carrara and redid the poses I initially did with Carrara's rigging. The elbow in one looks a little mangled, I did have joint limits really set of it yet. (sorry about it being so shiny, not the way I had it set in Poser)

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby_posing_002.jpg[" alt=""/img]


On a note. With poser figures, you can save poses. So when you load Brisby, you can instantly double click a file to put her into a pose. Which is nice if you ever come up with something complicated you can save it. And the poses can be good starting points to the real pose you want. Not sure if Daz Studio, free software, will save poses, but I know it reads them.

TimothyB

26-04-2008 14:17:50

Also, the free Daz Studio has animation too. It has a form of Puppeteer animation. Never used it, but it's kind of a grid of dots, each dot is like a keyframe (different position). You can setup the dots in a logical order and dragging between them causes the poses to blend togethor. Sort of like the key frame animator and then an inbetweener filling it in.

Here's an example of what this free software is capable of:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3AZRYJC9RV8

I only wish the animation could be exported to Carrara.

beerbeastredux

26-04-2008 19:59:39

can you import poser files into maya?

TimothyB

26-04-2008 20:31:33

can you import poser files into maya?


With a quick google of Poser to Maya, this was the first link (a bit of nudity of undressed 3D figure way down the page):
http://www.greenbriarstudio.com/3D/Mcr2load.htm

There may be other stuff with more searching

TimothyB

28-04-2008 08:15:00

A few new test renders, some the same poses but better materials.

Refined this pose a little more.
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby_posing_003.jpg[" alt=""/img]

I was working on the abdomen bend on this pose.
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby_posing_005.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Almost the same as the lying down pose but a ton of unseen joint editing to fix pinching on the other side.
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby_posing_004.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Nimhster

30-04-2008 20:26:25

Very impressive, I hope to see more!

TimothyB

04-05-2008 15:27:08

A few updates:

I test to see the combination of a morph (linear A to B position of the mouth), combined with the lower jaw rotating on a joint.

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/brisby_mouth1.gif[" alt=""/img]


A test of 3 morphs, and mixing a matching some of them:

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/brisby_mouth2.gif[" alt=""/img]


Here's a quick render to see how shaping the left eye with magnets to work as non-spherical is working out.

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/brisby_eyes_001.jpg[" alt=""/img]

leejakobson

06-05-2008 13:08:11

that is so cool

Nimhster

12-05-2008 14:09:04

Good! Mouth movements! :D

Whiskers57

08-06-2008 00:10:31

It looks likes all the parts are coming together, can`t wait !!

TimothyB

05-09-2008 03:08:40

About time I get back to working on this.

I'm having more luck, getting over most the Poser software hurtles. And did my first ERC coding, where you manually edit the text in the character files to make dials control other dials at once, which I needed to make the eyes blink.

But lets start the flood of images:

Some new renders from Poser testing out the new eyes before blink was available:

This was a complicated pose to get the arms to twist and bend to reach behind the ehad.
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris1.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Just testing flexibility:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris2.jpg[" alt=""/img]

This was meant to be more of a balance pose, but obviously out of balance in much of it, but not a walking pose:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris3.jpg[" alt=""/img]

Just another random pose used to test joints:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris4.jpg[" alt=""/img]

And old pose, but even better with eyes/expressions/lighting:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris5.jpg[" alt=""/img]

TimothyB

05-09-2008 03:23:55

Then came the eyelids. A simple closed version to morph between open
and close does not work, since it goes in a straight line to the closed
position, through the eye, instead of curving around it.

I had to make a couple extra morphs that push it out, then enhanced
remote channels to have the blink dial control those extra morphs at the
right time. It's sort of complicated, but you can see by my diagram, how
the master dial causes a chain reaction to other dials:

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris7.jpg[" alt=""/img]

That stuff above had me scared, figuring out the coding to add to the
files, but actually pretty simple, it just gets complicated when it comes to
the tricky things you can do with it.


Here's the resulting eye blink from the coding:
(Click to see this one, that way it doesn't slow the gif below)
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris_eyelid2.gif


Then someone in a different forum said if I made that animation
faster it would look like she's batting her eyes romantically, so then
I had a little fun:

[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris_eyelid3b.gif[" alt=""/img]


Bigger version of the GIF animation:
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris8.jpg[" alt=""/img]


Then the most recent render after making the ears able to move,
[img="]http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris9.jpg[" alt=""/img]

TimothyB

05-09-2008 14:45:38

Here's another fun thing that just came about when I was trying a relaxed pose. Really fun to try animation, but of course this is only 50 frames so I wasn't trying to make the speed natural. You'll notice the ears moving too.

1 second pause at the beginning and end.
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/brisby/bris_anim.gif[" alt=""/img]

Simon

05-09-2008 15:06:10

Very cool. Neat to see this getting better each time you work on it.

I only have one nitpick: maybe it's just me, but her pupils/irises seem rather small for her eyes. n.n;

Cedric

05-09-2008 19:29:03

I think that last video of her sitting down is amazing. She looks kind of cute at the end of it. :wink:

Whiskers57

15-09-2008 10:11:52

Wow! that came out better than I thought it would :D
Beautiful work TimothyB!

beerbeastredux

27-10-2008 14:53:51

your model is coming along nicely man. Keep it up.

Nimhster

29-10-2008 15:49:13

Impressive! You're very talented! :D

Mikey

11-11-2008 09:41:47

That's some great work done! Keep it up! Are you going to add some fur? I mean the Brisby's image won't be complete without that tiny flock of fur on her chin :) So I wish you good luck and hope very soon it will be done!

leejakobson

11-11-2008 16:32:40

that is assume can not wait to see more

Whiskers57

21-11-2008 22:00:45

That's some great work done! Keep it up! Are you going to add some fur? I mean the Brisby's image won't be complete without that tiny flock of fur on her chin :) So I wish you good luck and hope very soon it will be done!


that tiny flock of fur on her chin was one of the first things I noticed about her in the movie.

But I heard that CG fur is very hard to reproduce.

Light

26-03-2009 20:23:39

Great job. Only a true fan can put the time and effort into something like this.

Dr. Cheezburger

11-12-2009 11:10:30

Your work is simply outrageous! But in a good way, these pictures are very well rendered. I've been working with 2D animation, and I never make anything as good as that. Keep making progress! And don't forget her red cape!