Lab rats...

Hey guys. I figured this was neat to see on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AllOAJcF6y4

ALF or Animal Liberation Front activists break into a lab and free lab rats.

Hey guys. I figured this was neat to see on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AllOAJcF6y4

ALF or Animal Liberation Front activists break into a lab and free lab rats.

Yeah, 'cause we all know that freeing domesticated lab rats into the wild is the best way to help them survive. :roll:

And vandalism and destruction of property is the absolute best way to get your point across and encourage people to change policies and actions you don't agree with.

Idiots.

While I agree with Simon on the whole freeing domestic mice into the wild thing not working, some things that are considered vandalism are actually nice looking and cool. For example the whole Andre Has A Posse phenominom and Obey are both good examples. For the whole street art thing, all you need to do is check out artcrimes.com and take a look at it yourself.

Idiots, they may be.
But I see their intentions and support them. I agree that they are fighting to save rats from a very unpleasant existance. However, you are right to believe that releasing them into the wild does more harm than good.
My idea: sell them as pets or something. But don't send them off to another fate that makes them die quicker.
Also, wasn't the graffiti overdoing it just a bit? :?
Rocket scientists! Enough with the vandalism. Sue the lab, look for legally peaceful solutions.

While I agree with Simon on the whole freeing domestic mice into the wild thing not working, some things that are considered vandalism are actually nice looking and cool. For example the whole Andre Has A Posse phenominom and Obey are both good examples. For the whole street art thing, all you need to do is check out artcrimes.com and take a look at it yourself.

And that's not really my point. What they were doing wasn't for artistic merit, but to instill a message of fear into the recipient: if you try to do this again, we will do this again to you. While art may convey an emotion of fear to the viewer, the viewer doesn't have to worry about the artist going to their home and smashing their windows. Thus the difference between true vandalism and street art. One is merely destructive while the other has the potential to uplift.

Idiots, they may be.
But I see their intentions and support them. I agree that they are fighting to save rats from a very unpleasant existance. However, you are right to believe that releasing them into the wild does more harm than good.
My idea: sell them as pets or something. But don't send them off to another fate that makes them die quicker.
Also, wasn't the graffiti overdoing it just a bit? :?
Rocket scientists! Enough with the vandalism. Sue the lab, look for legally peaceful solutions.

I'll make it clear: I'm not attacking their cause, but their methods. The ends almost never justify the means, and I really hate it when people think that way. While I've got mixed feelings on the subject of animal testing (i.e. neither wholly for or wholly against), these guys certainly do nothing to make me sympathize with their cause.

ALF and ELF (Earth Liberation Front, pretty much does the same thing, except add arson to the mix) are basically domestic terrorist groups. They have killed more animals then saved, thats for sure. They also cost people thousands and thousands of dollars just to get their point across.

Theyre not accomplishing anything, and are pretty much the bane of the animal rights movement.

I said it once, and I'll say it again. I'm against labs testing methods on poor animals before killing them (not my kind of job). But letting those animals loose will only hasten their death. If not by men in lab coats with needles, then by hungry animals looking for rodents. I'm not against ALF, per se. But unless they do something that really will help the rodents, I'll consider them criminals. I agree that graffiti isn't all bad. Some people have made hobbies out of it, which results in beautifully colored city walls. But the messages are just plain wrong.
I'm sticking with my suggested solutions. Maybe a lawsuit won't work, but don't let the animals loose. News flash: a study has been completed just now. Domesticated animals often don't survive in the wild. Did the bums ever think of that?
If those guys are what ALF always does, then put the 'cuffs on them and lock them up. Destroying property, taking poor animals and making their deaths more painful. At least the scientists are (hopefully) humane about it.

I'll have to agree with Simon on this one. While their intentions may be laudable, this is clearly not the way to get their point across. And the graffiti is simply going way overboard. If they really wanted to get people's attention, they could quite literally "make some noise" by protesting in the streets. The last time I looked, this was still legal.

Peace :D
NIMHmaniac

Lets not forget that despite some of the "horror" stories of lab animal cruelty, if animals were not first used as test subjects in the first place years ago we would not have many of the medical advantages we humans have to day. For example, Insulin for Diabetics was developed as a direct result of testing on lab rabbits. There are tones of other medical technologies available to us today through animal testing as a base testing platform.

Don't get me wrong, spraying hair spray products into a rabbits face is not nice at all or pumping cosmetic formulas into the stomachs of spider monkeys is just plain idiotic.

Even though we are fans of The Secret of NIMH, we have to agree that a certain level of past animal experimentation has been advantageous to the point where it has enhanced our longevity and quality of life. I love the Secret of NIMH, but to say that "all" animal testing is wrong...well we might as well live in the dark ages before there was any real advantage to medicine and die from the simplest of colds and infections.

The graffiti tags are also a final insult to "some" dedicated scientists who have given their lives to help others, including the lives of the very people who are either freeing lab animals or committing arson to their buildings which may have cost the government millions just to setup. I posted the link to make the point that ALF is pretty much a group of professionals in the act of "Breaking And Entering". These criminals and their goals will never be met so long as they resort to criminal acts. There are proper channels for getting a point across and organizations like ALF are not the method. I was recently watching a documentary about PETA or People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. In this documentary there was mention of a well known arsonist who was an active member of ALF, went to high schools getting his warped points across by teach young teenagers how to make cheap and crude explosive devices to set fire to animal testing labs! What kind of screwed up school board would allow an arsonist to visit their schools and teach the young minds of the next generation how to blow stuff up only to save animals?

well thats my two cents on this subject.

I don't like groups like the ALF or ELF, no matter what their goals are. (Yes, I agree mistreatement of animals and pollution is very bad--but not their methods of dealing with it.)

They break the law in what they do (particularly the ELF, setting fire people's cars.) Obviously, these people never heard of petitioning or assembly. I don't know about you, but If that place happened to have been my home and they were breaking in for something like that, I'd shoot the second they got into the building. (That is legal in Georgia with thieves. They break in your house, you're allowed by law to shoot to kill as long as they are in your house.)

I'm not saying I support their methods. But I also don't see anything wrong with freeing animals from the lab and giving them a better life. Rats, for example, like human companionship. I highly doubt getting poked with needles and spiked food is what they want. If you want to test cosmetic stuff and most types of medicines, use criminals in prison. Skip the animal testing and go for humans. Those who test animals would probably see no difference between the two.
Now for experiments that require postmortum examination (brain dissection, regular dissection, etc.), I'll accept that. I don't like it, but it's a necessary evil.
In closing here, I generally support ALF's clause. But their methods are just plain wrong, completely stupid, and immature.

Those who test animals would probably see no difference between the two.

There are differences between rabbits and humans for hair spray products and other products that need not be tested. Usually anything that is classified as a rodent is so far removed from human physiology that tests are usually pointless comparing human needs to that of rats, mice, rabbits and other smaller mammals.

I do agree with using human subjects. Scientists would not even think about forcing an inmate or other human trial testers to swallow cosmetics into their stomachs or be subjected to hair spray blasts to the eyes, such as rabbits and spider monkeys have been treated in the past 20 - 30 years. When a human test subject is used, we can see how it will affect us right away with out the need to harm anymore animals who's testing results are completely different than that from a humans reaction to some sort of new consumable product.

Sure, human testing wouldn't be bad so long as there are people willing to accept pay doing being experimented on. However, you know that would only open up a huge can of legal matters and most scientists don't believe that's worth it. Next thing you know, someone a scientist contracted for experiments would find away around the contract to his or her your butt off.

Another sad fact about animal testing is that there are huge profits in it for the companies who supply the animals, food for the animals, medical and non-medical research material, cages, instrumentation and so on.

It will be a sad day for humanity if we valued a rat's life over another humans'. A prisioner is still a human being. I dont agree with animal testing (altho, it has help us tremendously), but, Im willing to take the lesser of 2 evils if theres no other way out.

But hey, if they agree to it and want to be paid to be tested on, let them kill themselves. As long as they dont do it aganist their will.

It will be a sad day for humanity if we valued a rat's life over another humans'. A prisioner is still a human being. I dont agree with animal testing (altho, it has help us tremendously), but, Im willing to take the lesser of 2 evils if theres no other way out.

But hey, if they agree to it and want to be paid to be tested on, let them kill themselves. As long as they dont do it aganist their will.

Human testing is and always has been more ethically treated, Thursday. You would never hear of human test subjects having hair spray products pumped into their eyes or cosmetic crap pumped into their stomach. Most likely the product in question would be tested over a period of time in the same way it has been developed to be consumed rather than subjected to same test methods as used in animal testing. This may be a touchy subject, but autospy styled tests on dead human material in the past has resulted in more beneficial advancements in "human" medicine than wasting time and energy testing on living animals.